Archetypes, Subtypes, Skills and Abilities, Oh my! Options

[Kunin]

Today I would like to share with you our our skills and Archetype system will work.

Tears of Polaris is designed with four Archetypes, each will have multiple Subtypes underneath it. They are Warrior, Mutant, Priest and Technomage.

Warriors are your traditional fighters, be it melee combat or with ranged weapons. An example of one of their Subtypes is the Exalted, those who specialize in more defensive and group oriented abilities.

Mutants are those whose minds and bodies have been changed by the Tears so far that they have gained extreme powers over their themselves and the world around them. These are the most "magical" types, an example of a Subtype would be the Elementalists or the Psionics.

Priests are those that have dedicated themselves to a Deity, or the Singularity. One possible Subtype would be the Monks, whom may or may not be martial artists. Note that Priests are not the only ones that can take advantage of the Singularity, though they are by default the leaders of the revolution.

Technomages are those that have learned to control and manipulate the technology of the day, and in some cases of the future. The Mechanics are one Subtype of Technomage, whom specialize in combining components to make devices for warning or attack.

Each player will start with 7 General skill slots, up to two of which can be used for Trade skills such as Tailoring, Chemistry or Smithing. During creation you will select an Archetype that you wish to be in, and one of your first skill choices will be a Primary Professional skill. The Primary Professional skill you choose will determine which Subtype you become, for example if you are a Warrior and choose Heroism as your Primary skill you will become an Exalted. Note that Primary Professional skill does NOT always mean the Primary combat skill.

Once you have determined your Subtype you will be able to choose up to two Secondary Professional skills from a list determined by your Archetype, Subtype and what other skills you currently have. Some of your skills, of all types, can be what are known as Base skills. Base skills offer branching skills that will specialize you within that skill. For example the Elementalist Secondary skill of Nature branches into Life and Death.

Once you have chosen your skills you might be tempted to look at AB <skill name>, which will give you a list of ALL the abilities that skill offers. Those skills that are coloured in RED are those that you cannot learn at this time. Abilities coloured in YELLOW are those that you are capable of learning currently. Abilities in GREEN are abilities in which you have learned, and those in GOLD are those that you have mastered.

As that implies, you learn each ability individually, by doing LEARN [number of lessons] <ability name> IN <skill> FROM <teacher>. For example to learn 15 lessons in the Battle Greeting ability in Swordplay from Anansi you would do LEARN 15 BATTLE GREETING IN SWORDPLAY FROM ANANSI. Abilities each have a lesson cost and a maximum rank, as you gain more rank in an ability it will become more effective and in some cases grant new abilities. To see these you would do AB <skill> <ability>. For example, here is the "AB file" for the Stoneskin ability in Elementalism:

CODE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[ Stoneskin ]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Rank: 0                                 Max Rank: 5          
Next Rank: 0%                                   Lesson Cost: 6                                                                                          

Requirements:                                   Recommended:                  
Orb at rank 2                                     None                          
Mud at rank 3                                                                
Ice at rank 1                                                                



Syntax: CAST STONESKIN <target>                                          
Range: Melee                                                            

                                                                              
Turn others skin to stone, making them stronger but a bit slower.              

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you can see, I currently have not learned this ability and it would cost me 6 lessons to gain rank 1 out of a possible 5 ranks. To learn this ability I must have the Orb ability at rank 2, the Mud ability at rank 3 and the Ice ability at rank 1, there are no recommended abilities for this ability. If there were they would be listed in the same manner as requirements, and by meeting the rank requirement of a recommended ability I would increase in rank faster for each lesson spent.

A player can choose to forget a single ability, as long as it is not required by any other ability that they have learned, and regain a portion of the lessons spent on it. If someone does not an entire skill they can forget it, as long as it is not a skill required by another skill and none of it's abilities are requirements of abilities outside of that skill, and regain a portion of the lessons spent on all of the abilities in that skill.

As you can see, this skill system can be fairly complex but I promise you once you start using it you won't have any problems with it. It offers a great amount of flexibility to the player, allowing them to choose from different possible skills and then learn the abilities in those skills as they see fit. For those that do not want to focus as much on combat they can choose to forgo up to two of their General skills in return for up to two Trade skills. This also has the effect that a player can get more out of their lessons as you will never have to learn an ability you don't need, or relearn an ability offered in another skill.

We plan to have at least two to three Subtypes for each Archetype that we will have at release, each having three to four possible choices for Secondary Professional skills. The "full" design calls for 4 Subtypes to each Archetype and four to five possible Secondary Professional skill choices for each Subtype, as well as at least ten General skills and an unknown number of Trade skills.



Disclaimer:
I purposefully chose not to use any of the "gun" based abilities in these examples as I wish to talk about them in more detail later, but rest assured that they do exist.

[Moordenaar]

I very much like this system... I've seen a few other systems like this for skills, where you require other skills, but none in a MUD. I definitely cannot wait.

(First reply... yay)

This post has been edited by Moordenaar: Feb 6 2008, 12:23 PM

[Parhelion]

Just a couple of questions:

1. Will you be making the skillsets public at some stage to facilitate easier character planning?

2. Will there be an option to 'forget'/rescind entire skillsets and, by extension, subtypes and/or archetypes?

[Kunin]

1. Will you be making the skillsets public at some stage to facilitate easier character planning?

Some may be released, though most will not be.

2. Will there be an option to 'forget'/rescind entire skillsets and, by extension, subtypes and/or archetypes?

Yes, which was listed above. You can forget an entire skill as long as that skill is not required by any other skills you have, and none of its' abilities are required by any other abilities in another skill you have. You can quit your Subtype, at the cost of quiting all of your Professional skills and once you have done that you can choose another Primary Professional skill or quit your Archetype and choose another after that.

Skillset is something players came up with many years ago, but does not exist. There are only Abilities which are collected in Skills.

[Ordos]

Wow, this seems very renovating/revolutionary for a MUD,, especially and IRE one..

Conclusion: I Like!! Great Success!

[Kaotac]

I like that it tells you how many lessons you need to get to the next skill rank.

Was hoping though that you would be able to advance skills with use, even if it's only a tiny bit.

Will the number of skill slots raise later on as you level or as more skills are introduced?

[Ordos]

Was hoping though that you would be able to advance skills with use, even if it's only a tiny bit.

Same here..

Also.. Will your skill increase little by little if you teach it a lot, like in the other IRE games?

[Kunin]

Same here..

Also.. Will your skill increase little by little if you teach it a lot, like in the other IRE games?

Yes, you will learn by teaching. Gaining skills through use just leads to players abusing it and/or using scripts to repeatedly use it unfortunately.

Since this goes along with it I will mention that lesson gain through levels has been scaled so that at the lower levels you gain more lessons than at the higher ones. Over all you will gain about the same amount you would in any other IRE game, but you'll get the majority of them before you get halfway through the levels. This was done to help the newer players, and I think will turn out quite well. In addition to this you will also gain all your bound credits, the freebies you get with levels, during the first half of your levels as well.

[Ordos]

So for the higher levels, it's all about saving up to buy creddies, or being happy with the numerous skills you'll prolly already have by then..

[Darc]

So, once you have learned a skill you will be able to turn around and teach it to another player? Will there be any limitations? As well as you'll learn alot during the first half, after that, you'll ultimately grow by giving back what you have learned personally?

[Kunin]

Once you have learned even a small amount in an ability you can teach that ability to another player, but only up to the point that you know.

Each Skill will consist of about 30 abilities, and the average cost to learn each ability to its' max rank will be about the same as in other IRE games. That isn't counting the "special" skills that is used by the highest tier fighters... but more on that when we get into the combat system.

One side effect of this system is that if we add another ability to a skill, the overall cost of learning that skill would increase beyond that of any other skill in another IRE game. Where in the other IRE games you would just magically gain that ability at no additional cost. I feel this is offset by the fact that you in no means have to learn every ability in a skill, if an ability would not help your character or style of play, you don't need to spend any lessons on it at all.

[Kunin]

I almost forgot to mention... no Archetypes or Subtypes are tied to any organization in any way, though some skills are tied to the Singularity.

[Shiri]

One side effect of this system is that if we add another ability to a skill, the overall cost of learning that skill would increase beyond that of any other skill in another IRE game. Where in the other IRE games you would just magically gain that ability at no additional cost. I feel this is offset by the fact that you in no means have to learn every ability in a skill, if an ability would not help your character or style of play, you don't need to spend any lessons on it at all.

This doesn't sound that great. Besides, does that mean skills have variable costs in RL money to "trans"? What if a class starts out weak and then needs extra skills added to bring it up to par? Making people pay more for that seems like a recipe for Unhappy Players.

[Dagda]

This doesn't sound that great. Besides, does that mean skills have variable costs in RL money to "trans"? What if a class starts out weak and then needs extra skills added to bring it up to par? Making people pay more for that seems like a recipe for Unhappy Players.

There are plenty of cases in most IRE games where I can think of a skillset that has 50 abilities and you use about 5 (usually at elast one of them at trans or myth and a half). In this case you could just learn those five skills and it would cost nothing like the cost of transing the skill would have in other IRE games.

[Ordos]

Actually, it probably would, since you need the other skills up to a certain level as prerequirement..

[Darc]

being able to pick and choose will make each person more unique, rather then being forced to learn one skill to get to the next... however, maybe a level cap to learn some skills will make some people work a bit harder in order for there perfect "class"

[Kaotac]

Yes, you will learn by teaching. Gaining skills through use just leads to players abusing it and/or using scripts to repeatedly use it unfortunately.

Since this goes along with it I will mention that lesson gain through levels has been scaled so that at the lower levels you gain more lessons than at the higher ones. Over all you will gain about the same amount you would in any other IRE game, but you'll get the majority of them before you get halfway through the levels. This was done to help the newer players, and I think will turn out quite well. In addition to this you will also gain all your bound credits, the freebies you get with levels, during the first half of your levels as well.

To protect against macroing, you could limit the number of gains a person got per hour. Maybe scale it to the level of that skill they're at.. Say up to 5% worth per hour when you're novice in the skill to 0.5% per day at Mythical in raises of 0.1% each. Also, you wouldn't get a raise every time you used the skill.
Or, and I'm thinking of the way HellMOO does it, you get a limit of 50 raises per RL day which could go into any skill you use. If each raise was 0.1%, players would be limited to a max of 5% per day.
You could also use the IRE rule of no auto-ratting, and say that if someone is macroing their skills with scripts while AFK, they would be shrubbed.

[Kunin]

There are plenty of cases in most IRE games where I can think of a skillset that has 50 abilities and you use about 5 (usually at elast one of them at trans or myth and a half). In this case you could just learn those five skills and it would cost nothing like the cost of transing the skill would have in other IRE games.

Dagda is correct there, and it also means we have to try much harder to design abilities so that they always have some use. Take for example the standard idea of a "newbie attack" and then a bigger attack at higher levels. With this system that wouldn't do much good, as who would learn the lower level one? To get around that we make sure that the lower level attack is better in some cases. For example, if an Elementalist has an ability BEAM that does basic damage and then can get cast a FIREBALL at a "higher" level that does more damage, the beam ability should do damage types other than fire(or randomly select damage types) so that in some cases it would do more damage than the fireball due to resistances on the target.

[Kunin]

Actually, it probably would, since you need the other skills up to a certain level as prerequirement..

Actually one of my rules of skill design is that you do NOT EVER make a skill require something that does not make sense from an IC stand point. To use the example I gave above, Stoneskin coats(Orb) the person in rock(Mud + Ice). I will not ever make a skill require something if there isn't a logical reason for it, not just "because I want them to spend more money." Recommended abilities generally follow the same pattern, though it is not a hard rule as you can learn something without it's recommended abilities, they just make it cheaper to do so.

[Kunin]

being able to pick and choose will make each person more unique, rather then being forced to learn one skill to get to the next... however, maybe a level cap to learn some skills will make some people work a bit harder in order for there perfect "class"

We have another system to make people even more unique... for another release.